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EMP protection may be more important than many people think. "New Studies Warn of Cataclysmic Solar Superstorms"

randall krippner
 

I ran into this over at Scientific American the other day - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-studies-warn-of-cataclysmic-solar-superstorms/

I wonder how long it would that the US and other countries to recover from an event like that. If we ever could, that is.

Chris Warren/offgridham.com
 

Industry experts have been warning that the power infrastructure is seriously compromised even without an EMP event. 

Hopefully we'll never need to find out how weak it really is. 

 

I know OH8STN has his whole radio room in a faraday cage, but have never heard of anyone else having a "protected" setup they use.

Anyone on the group have something like that?

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019, 17:39 Chris Warren/offgridham.com via Groups.Io <solarham=rocketmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Industry experts have been warning that the power infrastructure is seriously compromised even without an EMP event. 

Hopefully we'll never need to find out how weak it really is. 

whiskeybravo16@...
 

I bought 2 microwave ovens cheap at garage sales. Stripped them of all electronic wires etc and put radios and gear in them. I then put the 2 ovens in a metal military foot locker that I insulated with foam.
The foot locker is then placed inside a metal storage shed with a heavy ground strap to  one wall of the shed.

The theory is: that if the microwave technology can keep the RF radiation inside without leaking to the outside, then the reverse should be true....it should block RF from getting inside the oven.

WB-16

John McDonald
 

On a radio program this week an additional ripple was introduced to protecting items from EMP and Solar, was magnetic component within an EMP or Solar mass ejection ..... the solution was to add copper mesh between the two galvanized trash cans ... sides, top, and bottom.  Just passing on what was said ..... copper window screen would be playable just a matter of taping the pieces together. 
KK4PMN 


On Oct 5, 2019, at 1:13 PM, whiskeybravo16 via Groups.Io <whiskeybravo16@...> wrote:

I bought 2 microwave ovens cheap at garage sales. Stripped them of all electronic wires etc and put radios and gear in them. I then put the 2 ovens in a metal military foot locker that I insulated with foam.
The foot locker is then placed inside a metal storage shed with a heavy ground strap to  one wall of the shed.

The theory is: that if the microwave technology can keep the RF radiation inside without leaking to the outside, then the reverse should be true....it should block RF from getting inside the oven.

WB-16

 

John, 
Did they mean between the cans with separation by insulation? 

Otherwise they are bonding the two "grounding paths" into one which would reduce the effectiveness I would think.

On Sat, Oct 5, 2019, 10:28 John McDonald <jbmiii@...> wrote:
On a radio program this week an additional ripple was introduced to protecting items from EMP and Solar, was magnetic component within an EMP or Solar mass ejection ..... the solution was to add copper mesh between the two galvanized trash cans ... sides, top, and bottom.  Just passing on what was said ..... copper window screen would be playable just a matter of taping the pieces together. 
KK4PMN 


On Oct 5, 2019, at 1:13 PM, whiskeybravo16 via Groups.Io <whiskeybravo16@...> wrote:

I bought 2 microwave ovens cheap at garage sales. Stripped them of all electronic wires etc and put radios and gear in them. I then put the 2 ovens in a metal military foot locker that I insulated with foam.
The foot locker is then placed inside a metal storage shed with a heavy ground strap to  one wall of the shed.

The theory is: that if the microwave technology can keep the RF radiation inside without leaking to the outside, then the reverse should be true....it should block RF from getting inside the oven.

WB-16

John McDonald
 

The 31 gal can has cardboard within it interior (sides, top, bottom), the 20 gal can inserted into the 31 gal; the 20 gal has cardboard interior same as larger trash can. Lids off both trash cans tight fitting.  On both trash cans and lid  handle and side handles have heavy aluminum tape so there aren’t any openings. 



On Oct 5, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Jim, K7JLJ <jim@...> wrote:

John, 
Did they mean between the cans with separation by insulation? 

Otherwise they are bonding the two "grounding paths" into one which would reduce the effectiveness I would think.

On Sat, Oct 5, 2019, 10:28 John McDonald <jbmiii@...> wrote:
On a radio program this week an additional ripple was introduced to protecting items from EMP and Solar, was magnetic component within an EMP or Solar mass ejection ..... the solution was to add copper mesh between the two galvanized trash cans ... sides, top, and bottom.  Just passing on what was said ..... copper window screen would be playable just a matter of taping the pieces together. 
KK4PMN 


On Oct 5, 2019, at 1:13 PM, whiskeybravo16 via Groups.Io <whiskeybravo16@...> wrote:

I bought 2 microwave ovens cheap at garage sales. Stripped them of all electronic wires etc and put radios and gear in them. I then put the 2 ovens in a metal military foot locker that I insulated with foam.
The foot locker is then placed inside a metal storage shed with a heavy ground strap to  one wall of the shed.

The theory is: that if the microwave technology can keep the RF radiation inside without leaking to the outside, then the reverse should be true....it should block RF from getting inside the oven.

WB-16

James Dyke
 

Just cut the power cord off and seal the hole of the microwave ovens. Should work.

 

From: main@OffGridComms.groups.io <main@OffGridComms.groups.io> On Behalf Of whiskeybravo16 via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2019 10:14 AM
To: main@OffGridComms.groups.io
Subject: Re: [OffGridEmComms] EMP protection may be more important than many people think. "New Studies Warn of Cataclysmic Solar Superstorms"

 

I bought 2 microwave ovens cheap at garage sales. Stripped them of all electronic wires etc and put radios and gear in them. I then put the 2 ovens in a metal military foot locker that I insulated with foam.
The foot locker is then placed inside a metal storage shed with a heavy ground strap to  one wall of the shed.

The theory is: that if the microwave technology can keep the RF radiation inside without leaking to the outside, then the reverse should be true....it should block RF from getting inside the oven.

WB-16

randall krippner
 

You're right, Chris. The power grid is already fragile and easily disrupted even by more mundane events. They just had a power failure in Madison following an explosion and fire at a substation. A transformer blew up. The thing is, they knew the transformer was bad apparently for weeks and did nothing about it until the thing actually exploded and caused a significant blackout. They never explained why they let it go until it blew. Financial reasons, probably. I read an article years ago that if another Carrington type event happened, it would be five years before the grid would be fully restored because of a lack of spare parts, maintenance equipment and trained personnel.

randall krippner
 

On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 10:13 AM, <whiskeybravo16@...> wrote:
I bought 2 microwave ovens cheap at garage sales. Stripped them of all electronic wires etc and put radios and gear in them. I then put the 2 ovens in a metal military foot locker that I insulated with foam.
The foot locker is then placed inside a metal storage shed with a heavy ground strap to  one wall of the shed.

The theory is: that if the microwave technology can keep the RF radiation inside without leaking to the outside, then the reverse should be true....it should block RF from getting inside the oven.

WB-16
I don't know enough about microwave ovens to give a definitive answer, but I do know that other people are using them for the same purpose. I seem to remember that there is test data out there, somewhere, from people who've actually tested how well they'd work. Gizmodo has a short little article about using one for EMP at https://io9.gizmodo.com/could-a-microwave-save-your-electronics-during-an-emp-a-5902325

At a guess, I'd say that it isn't going to be 100% effective, but it's certainly going to be a good enough shield to significantly cut down on the amount of RF getting into the oven. The metal locker and metal shed are certainly going to help too.

randall krippner
 

On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 12:16 PM, John McDonald wrote:
The 31 gal can has cardboard within it interior (sides, top, bottom), the 20 gal can inserted into the 31 gal; the 20 gal has cardboard interior same as larger trash can. Lids off both trash cans tight fitting.  On both trash cans and lid  handle and side handles have heavy aluminum tape so there aren’t any openings. 
 
 
Shouldn't it be grounded, too? I admit I don't know as much about this stuff as I should, but wouldn't an EM field moving through a metal object like a trash can generate and electrical current, or even act as an antenna at some frequencies, re-transmitting, so to speak, the energy into the inside of the container?

JR Gay
 

Regarding Randall's Q on grounding: there has been a great deal of discussion on that very subject for many years, but, as far as I have been able to determine, no definitive answer even after much theory and limited experimentation. I guess we're not going to know for sure until somebody gets hit with a massive EMP

 

My gut feeling is it should, but because it would need to handle so much amperage it's not practical.

The any conductor that passes through or has a magnetic field pass through it creates a potential at the ends of it.

Potential try to equalize in the for. Of a current path.  If the potential is high enough that can cause arcing to other equalizing paths and detroying your electronics.

The idea of the stackable dolls routine with insulation between conductors (garbage cans) is to allow the potential to be absorbed by the outside layer(s) to reduce the feild on the gear inside.

No different than using voltage rated cat5 cable in a 600v cable tray with your motor leads in an industrial plant. Mutual induction is the same principle no matter the level of the magnetic field. 

Problem is that if the magnetic field lasts long enough, the outer conductors of your system will create their own magnetic field IF current begins to flow.

No flow... no induction to the layer inside.

On the other hand, no flow... higher potential develops and chance of arcing increases, this where a method to bleed to ground might sound like a better idea.

This is all basic electrical theory, but the key word when it comes to EMP is theory.

We cant be sure how the materials we use will act.

 

Sorry about the spell checker on my phone.

I think the best method would be to capture the fields potential and slowly drain it of the outer layer as to not create a secondary field on the inner conductor (trash can) by using a hi-restive ground path.  Same principle of build hi-voltage drop cables... we layer semi-conductor between the conductor and insulation and attach a bleed ground wire to the pole ground.  This is done mostly for controlling the corona affect on the edge of the insulator, but the principle would work for bleeding induced fields off the insulation as well I believe.

But if the field is overwhelming, then the semi-conductor (resister) burns up and now you are a "floating wire" again.  Personally, I fear that a solid ground connection (unless oversize, what that is, I would not know) would do the same thing...  If I was bonding to ground it would be at least 2 ground rods and 4/0 bare stranded copper wire, with < 10ohm ground path.

Easier and cheaper to go with "ungrounded" and since even experts can't agree... that's my method cause I'm cheap and willing to put it in YHVH's hands. :)


On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 8:25 AM Jim, K7JLJ <jim@...> wrote:
My gut feeling is it should, but because it would need to handle so much amperage it's not practical.

The any conductor that passes through or has a magnetic field pass through it creates a potential at the ends of it.

Potential try to equalize in the for. Of a current path.  If the potential is high enough that can cause arcing to other equalizing paths and detroying your electronics.

The idea of the stackable dolls routine with insulation between conductors (garbage cans) is to allow the potential to be absorbed by the outside layer(s) to reduce the feild on the gear inside.

No different than using voltage rated cat5 cable in a 600v cable tray with your motor leads in an industrial plant. Mutual induction is the same principle no matter the level of the magnetic field. 

Problem is that if the magnetic field lasts long enough, the outer conductors of your system will create their own magnetic field IF current begins to flow.

No flow... no induction to the layer inside.

On the other hand, no flow... higher potential develops and chance of arcing increases, this where a method to bleed to ground might sound like a better idea.

This is all basic electrical theory, but the key word when it comes to EMP is theory.

We cant be sure how the materials we use will act.

Lt. (AK) Michael Heit
 

Hmmm ... sounds like a jiant capacitor ....

Might want to ground it good ....

Lt. Michael Heit [AK]
Retired
Alaska State Defense Force

On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 5:24 AM, randall krippner
<randallkrippner@...> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 12:16 PM, John McDonald wrote:
The 31 gal can has cardboard within it interior (sides, top, bottom), the 20 gal can inserted into the 31 gal; the 20 gal has cardboard interior same as larger trash can. Lids off both trash cans tight fitting.  On both trash cans and lid  handle and side handles have heavy aluminum tape so there aren’t any openings. 
 
 
Shouldn't it be grounded, too? I admit I don't know as much about this stuff as I should, but wouldn't an EM field moving through a metal object like a trash can generate and electrical current, or even act as an antenna at some frequencies, re-transmitting, so to speak, the energy into the inside of the container?

 

Good point, if the outer layer is insulated from ground completely... it would be.  If the can is touching ground although not bonded, I am hoping that you will get the restive ground effect I'm counting on to limit current fields but not keep it charged.

It's all theory until you grab the megger leads! :)


On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 9:16 AM Lt. (AK) Michael Heit via Groups.Io <ltheit=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hmmm ... sounds like a jiant capacitor ....

Might want to ground it good ....

Lt. Michael Heit [AK]
Retired
Alaska State Defense Force

On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 5:24 AM, randall krippner
On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 12:16 PM, John McDonald wrote:
The 31 gal can has cardboard within it interior (sides, top, bottom), the 20 gal can inserted into the 31 gal; the 20 gal has cardboard interior same as larger trash can. Lids off both trash cans tight fitting.  On both trash cans and lid  handle and side handles have heavy aluminum tape so there aren’t any openings. 
 
 
Shouldn't it be grounded, too? I admit I don't know as much about this stuff as I should, but wouldn't an EM field moving through a metal object like a trash can generate and electrical current, or even act as an antenna at some frequencies, re-transmitting, so to speak, the energy into the inside of the container?

 

Actually, I take that back.  The only way it can act as a capacitor would be if the inner "plate" was exposed to the opposite potential as the outer.  The theory is that the encompassing can is completely sealed so no potential can develop from one end to the other, it's bonded to itself to prevent potential build up across it.  It will develop potential between it and earth but supposedly no the inner can as it would require a field to be put against it, which can not happen if the outer can   has no path to flow current.

This is the main reason I don't want my outer conductor flowing current.... no current = no mutual induction.

Lt. (AK) Michael Heit
 

Sounds reasonable to me ... grounding the outer surface would be the same as a bleeder resistor ... only much larger; the object would be to drain off any EMF before it can affect the items inside. I have several items I've placed into safe keeping ... in my friends Atlas E missile site .... 

Keep the faith ; I read the end of the book. If we keep the faith ... we win.

Mike de AD7VV 

Michael Heit
Electronics Engineer
Everts Air Cargo 
Flight Simulator Division
5525 Airport Industrial Road Building 300
Fairbanks, Alaska 99705
907-371-0195




On Sunday, October 6, 2019, 08:30:12 AM AKDT, Jim, K7JLJ <jim@...> wrote:


Actually, I take that back.  The only way it can act as a capacitor would be if the inner "plate" was exposed to the opposite potential as the outer.  The theory is that the encompassing can is completely sealed so no potential can develop from one end to the other, it's bonded to itself to prevent potential build up across it.  It will develop potential between it and earth but supposedly no the inner can as it would require a field to be put against it, which can not happen if the outer can   has no path to flow current.

This is the main reason I don't want my outer conductor flowing current.... no current = no mutual induction.

 

Hard to beat a missile silo for a faraday cage. LOL

Does bring up a good point that something buried is likely to be the same potential as ground which in my mind would be like one cell of a huge cathode compared to the anode plate represented by the pulse.

Anyway, it's all guess work and I I'm making uneducated guesses at that.  My go kit is in a pelican case which is inside an old NV aluminum case which when not in use is in a safe on concrete.

Since the wife won't let me wrap the house in metal cloth, that's as good as it gets for me. :)

On Sun, Oct 6, 2019, 09:54 Lt. (AK) Michael Heit via Groups.Io <ltheit=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Sounds reasonable to me ... grounding the outer surface would be the same as a bleeder resistor ... only much larger; the object would be to drain off any EMF before it can affect the items inside. I have several items I've placed into safe keeping ... in my friends Atlas E missile site .... 

Keep the faith ; I read the end of the book. If we keep the faith ... we win.

Mike de AD7VV 

Michael Heit
Electronics Engineer
Everts Air Cargo 
Flight Simulator Division
5525 Airport Industrial Road Building 300
Fairbanks, Alaska 99705
907-371-0195




On Sunday, October 6, 2019, 08:30:12 AM AKDT, Jim, K7JLJ <jim@...> wrote:


Actually, I take that back.  The only way it can act as a capacitor would be if the inner "plate" was exposed to the opposite potential as the outer.  The theory is that the encompassing can is completely sealed so no potential can develop from one end to the other, it's bonded to itself to prevent potential build up across it.  It will develop potential between it and earth but supposedly no the inner can as it would require a field to be put against it, which can not happen if the outer can   has no path to flow current.

This is the main reason I don't want my outer conductor flowing current.... no current = no mutual induction.

James Dyke
 

With lots of reading of many ideas of EMP protection, that all vary, there is one common thought, there needs to be multiple layers of protection.

 

From: main@OffGridComms.groups.io <main@OffGridComms.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim, K7JLJ
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2019 12:31 PM
To: main@offgridcomms.groups.io
Subject: Re: [OffGridEmComms] EMP protection may be more important than many people think. "New Studies Warn of Cataclysmic Solar Superstorms"

 

Hard to beat a missile silo for a faraday cage. LOL

 

Does bring up a good point that something buried is likely to be the same potential as ground which in my mind would be like one cell of a huge cathode compared to the anode plate represented by the pulse.

 

Anyway, it's all guess work and I I'm making uneducated guesses at that.  My go kit is in a pelican case which is inside an old NV aluminum case which when not in use is in a safe on concrete.

 

Since the wife won't let me wrap the house in metal cloth, that's as good as it gets for me. :)

 

On Sun, Oct 6, 2019, 09:54 Lt. (AK) Michael Heit via Groups.Io <ltheit=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me ... grounding the outer surface would be the same as a bleeder resistor ... only much larger; the object would be to drain off any EMF before it can affect the items inside. I have several items I've placed into safe keeping ... in my friends Atlas E missile site .... 

 

Keep the faith ; I read the end of the book. If we keep the faith ... we win.

 

Mike de AD7VV 

 

Michael Heit

Electronics Engineer

Everts Air Cargo 

Flight Simulator Division

5525 Airport Industrial Road Building 300

Fairbanks, Alaska 99705

907-371-0195

 

http://www.evertsair.com

 

 

 

On Sunday, October 6, 2019, 08:30:12 AM AKDT, Jim, K7JLJ <jim@...> wrote:

 

 

Actually, I take that back.  The only way it can act as a capacitor would be if the inner "plate" was exposed to the opposite potential as the outer.  The theory is that the encompassing can is completely sealed so no potential can develop from one end to the other, it's bonded to itself to prevent potential build up across it.  It will develop potential between it and earth but supposedly no the inner can as it would require a field to be put against it, which can not happen if the outer can   has no path to flow current.

This is the main reason I don't want my outer conductor flowing current.... no current = no mutual induction.